Stephanie Landis (00:06):

Hello and welcome to Unbabbled, a podcast that navigates the world of special education, communication, delays and learning differences. We are your host, Stephanie Landis and Meredith Krimmel, and we’re certified speech language pathologist who spend our days at the parish school in Houston helping children find their voices and connect with the world around them. Hey, this is Stephanie jumping in really quickly to tell you about our sponsors soccer shots. Houston, The Parish School has been lucky enough to have a group of students participate in soccer shots right here on our campus for the past couple of years. And it has been an amazing way for our students to be a part of a team. Soccer shots began programming in Houston in 2009 with a goal of positively impacting children’s lives and supporting their learning of their favorite game soccer. Their program was formed under the guidance of childhood education specialists, professional soccer players, and experienced and licensed soccer coaches. They use a developmentally appropriate curriculum that meets children where they are, and the coaches place an emphasis on character development and skill building. The coaches use words like respect, confidence, and determination in their weekly classes. To learn more about soccer shots, visit their website@www.soccer shots.com/houston. Again, that’s www soccer shots.com/houston.

(01:25):

In this episode, I’m joined by guest host Mimi Branham to discuss the DIR Floor time therapy model with speech language pathologist Sharon Duval. Sharon has over 40 years of experience working in a variety of settings. She currently has a private practice here in Houston, Duval’s Center for Speech and Sensory Motor Development, where she specializes in working with individuals with neurological differences utilizing the Dr. R approach. Sharon became certified in the DIR floor time model after beginning her training in 2004 with the founders of the approach, Dr. Stanley Greenspan and Dr. Serena Wilder. Throughout the episode, Sharon discusses the underlying principles of D I r, how it may differ from traditional therapy, the population she works with, and why she’s so passionate about this approach. Sharon also touches on a major misconception people have about child-led approaches like D I r floor time. It was a pleasure to speak with Sharon today, and we hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome. We have a very special episode of Unbabel Today. We have a guest host joining us. Mimi Branham. Welcome, Mimi. Well, thank you Stephanie. Glad to be here. She is the director of the Carruth Center here on the Parish Schools campus. It is a private clinic that sees both parish school kids and community clients, so it’s great to have her here. And our very special guest today is Sharon Duval, and she is here to talk to us about Diara floor time therapy. Welcome, Sharon.

Sharon Duval (02:52):

Thank you so much. I’m glad to be here.

Stephanie Landis (02:55):

Yay. Well, I’m glad to have both of you here with us today. Sharon, can you tell us a little bit about what got you into floor time, and then we’ll go into what it is?

Sharon Duval (03:04):

Well, I’m glad you asked because when I started off early in my career, I learned that the best way to engage a child was to play with them. It was very controversial at the time because my methods just did not seem to be therapeutic at all. But I believed that in order to get the child involved in the therapeutic process, I needed to develop a relationship with them, and I needed to make therapy fun. Yeah. And so that’s what I tried to do. And then a few years later, a family comes into my life. They had been working with Greenspan, one of the developers of the model, and Serena Wheater, the other developer of the model. And they were looking for someone in the Houston area who could do floor time with their child. Well, I wasn’t formally involved in the training, but their nanny knew about me, and she told them that I play with kids <laugh>. And so they came to my office. I started working with their child, and they took me under their wing, and I traveled a couple of times with them to see Stanley Greenspan and Serena Wheater had the privilege of being coached by both of them and was smitten. And that’s where my journey really began, because when I met Greenspan, I said, this is a man who speaks my language.

Stephanie Landis (05:32):

Yeah, that’s amazing. I didn’t know that you got to work directly with him. So can you explain a little bit about what the philosophy behind d I r floor time is?

Sharon Duval (05:44):

Well, the philosophy is that in order to build a child’s capacity to think, relate and communicate, you have to develop a relationship with a child. And the way that you do that is to understand their sensory processing, because that is the way it is through their sensory system. That’s how a child perceives the world. And so by gaining insight into their ability or into the way that they perceive the world, then you’re able to meet them where they are to develop that critical relationship with them. And then it is through that relationship that the child learns that not only can you help them to feel calm, but you can also bring pleasure into the learning process.

(07:06):

And through that, you can help a child to be intentional. You can help them to become interested in other people and the world around them so that they are gaining meaningful information about their experiences. And it is through that meaning then they start to see that interactions can be relevant and they can have the kind of satisfying learning experiences that make them want to participate and, and be a part of the world around them. Wow. That was a really excellent synopsis of being child led and child driven and talking about the motivation to communicate and to interact with others. Thank you. You thank you.

Stephanie Landis (08:14):

Yeah. It seems like it really focuses on finding where the child is and meeting them there, and then building instead of kind of forcing a child to come to where we want them to be.

Sharon Duval (08:26):

Absolutely. And we’re all in this profession are related professions because we care about children, but unfortunately there are old traditional ways of thinking about learning and about children and, and what drives their learning. Um, it can be hard to break through those traditional old ways of thinking, and I think mainly because they’re just more comfortable for us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s hard to step outside of our comfort zones, but in thinking about that, it gives us insight into how hard it is for the children that we work with to step outside of their comfort zones. The primary difference is their, their, uh, zone of comfort. Their ban of comfort is much narrower than ours. But nevertheless, it’s a comfort zone where you feel safe and secure. So when you’re using traditional ways of working with children, you kind of have your, uh, agenda that you are following, and you can check off the boxes and you can complete the task and you feel good.

(09:59):

And that’s tempting because being process oriented, which is what DIR is all about, DIR floor time is about being process oriented. It’s not about product is not about certain outcomes. It’s about connecting with that child, getting that shared attention, getting that engagement. And in order to do that, you have to meet that child where they are. And some children are underreact. That means that they may not be registering in a meaningful way. Um, what you’re doing in the interaction or some children are overreactive maybe what you’re doing that the sound of your voice, your volume, your facial expressions, your quick movements spook them. And so then they may go into a defensive mode. So it’s the process again, of gaining insight into that child’s processing profile so that you can meet them where they are, get them engaged and responsive and reciprocal. And now you’ve got some trial and error discovery type learning practices taking place.

Stephanie Landis (11:35):

Do you find that you work more with children of certain ages? Is this an approach that will work for a variety of ages?

Sharon Duval (11:42):

It works for all ages, even adults, even typical adults, <laugh>, even typical children. Uh, the parents are in the therapy sessions with me. So the d i r interactions are actually occurring between the parent and I, the child and I, the child and the parent. It’s all around. Our parents are very overwhelmed and it’s so easy as a professional to um, direct them, lecture them about what they need to do with their child during the therapy session. The parent can be overwhelmed. And so it’s important that I read the parent’s signals so that I can know how much to say, how much not to say, um, how much to pull them into the interaction or not. So that the therapy session again, um, is an interaction that all can participate in just based on where they are in that moment.

Stephanie Landis (13:19):

Do the parents know that they’re getting therapy too?

Sharon Duval (13:22):

I think some do <laugh>. In fact, I’ve had some parents say to me, um, I know that I need to like, not where my high heels to the therapy session <laugh> wear pants, because you never know what, what, what you might be doing in a, in a therapy session with Sharon Duval <laugh>.

Stephanie Landis (13:48):

Yeah. But I’m sure that’s incredibly helpful for them to have that hands-on experience so they can take it back because we get such a short amount of time with parents. So the parent involvement piece is, is huge.

Sharon Duval (14:00):

Absolutely. And I learn so much from the parents. Um, I think as a young professional, um, when I was a young professional, um, it was easy. I think sometimes to, uh, without realizing it, judge the parents. Right.

Speaker 3 (14:23):

Yeah, I can see that.

Sharon Duval (14:25):

Yeah. But the older I get and the more I learn from parents, um, it it teaches me the importance of kind of reading their signals and, and walking in their shoes so that I can have the kind of attitude and compassion for them. And I, I continue even after like almost 42 years of practice, I continue to be blown away at the level of commitment and dedication and sacrifice that these parents make every single day.

Stephanie Landis (15:28):

Yeah. Just the parents here at our school and clinic, they’re amazing in what they will do and the great lengths that they will go through for their children.

Sharon Duval (15:38):

Absolutely.

Stephanie Landis (15:40):

I I often say that I was such a great parent before I became a parent, so <laugh>. Yeah.

Sharon Duval (15:46):

Right. Isn’t that the truth? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you’re

Mimi Branham (15:48):

The perfect parent.

Sharon Duval (15:49):

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. You have all the answers. <laugh>.

Mimi Branham (15:54):

So what would a family expect when they walk in for an initial meeting with you or an assessment with you that would be different than what they would get from a typical speech language pathology assessment or an initial meeting?

Sharon Duval (16:09):

Right, right. I, I think number one, being involved in the evaluation process or the initial session, the parents are involved because it’s important that I observe the parent interacting with the child, um, to gain insight about their relationship and, um, the parents’, um, um, understanding of their, their child’s, um, learning style. Um, and, and then the parents are observing me interacting with their child. And then at the end of the initial session, I always talk to the parents, give them just a, a brief verbal summary of my observations and suggestions on how to get started that very day.

Stephanie Landis (17:24):

That would be very different

Mimi Branham (17:25):

<laugh>. Yeah. Absolutely. Is d i r floor time only done with one child at a time? Is it ever done in a group with more than one child?

Sharon Duval (17:36):

Absolutely. Okay. Um, currently I do not have any groups. Um, but I have done group work before. Um, I’ve done group work where there are, um, educators and, and the students, and we are doing d i r based type group interactions. Um, it is a methodology that is, um, effective in the classroom as well. Um, of course, individual therapy sessions and the, when the educators and adults, when they have a good grasp of the application of the principles, um, the groups go a better, much better, of course. Um, but even for those who are, um, just beginning to, um, learn d i r practices, um, the group, the group environment can be, um, a, a a great place to, to learn because you, um, you are, you are with other people who are practicing. And then of course, if you have a mentor person there, then that mentor person is utilizing the d i r principles in supporting the learning of the other educators and therapists.

(19:31):

So it’s, it’s all supportive. And that’s what I love about it, that when you are really applying d i r principles, then every person in that room should feel supported. Um, of course it doesn’t, perhaps it, and I think it’s something that individuals who are learning the model grow into, because we’re kind of used to this kind of, uh, um, supervision style that’s, you know, kind of checking off, you know, whether you are, uh, uh, doing what you’re supposed to do or not. But it’s not that way with d i r because with it being a process, uh, oriented approach all about relationships, all about understanding each other’s learning style, then, um, the application of that, um, involves every person in the room. And the more, um, you participate in, in that, in that, uh, process, the more comfortable you become as, as a clinician, as a therapist, as an educator, um, because we all sometimes worry about, oh, am I gonna do the wrong thing? You know, the parents will sometimes think, oh, am I gonna do the wrong thing? But it’s not about that. It’s, it’s about being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and practice and learn and grow.

Stephanie Landis (21:12):

Yeah. And that can be a big shift. I’m thinking back to one of the first times I was introduced to this type of methodology, and I had a child who really liked to, um, self, they like to stem by taking a stick and rubbing it between his hands and watching it. And it might have even been you, cause I know you were working with this, this family Lee too, you were told the teacher, and I like, well do it with him. And we’re like, what <laugh>? So like, okay, it’s worth a try. And so we just like stood there and did it too. And then he’d look and then he’d look at us and watch what we were doing. And it just, just stepping into his little world and doing those actions alongside him, slowly opened him up to like trusting us more, to engaging with us more. We finally figured out kind of his motivation behind why he liked doing it. And we’re like, this is actually kind of fun.

Sharon Duval (22:09):

<laugh>. That’s right. <laugh>.

Stephanie Landis (22:10):

It’s meeting a need. And it just like opened a doorway. So I know that there have been many times where I’m like, okay, well this is a wild shot, but sure, I’ll just get on the floor and roll around with them too. Wow. And I know that like, somebody watching is probably having some really big thoughts about me, <laugh>. Wow. But I bet that you’re used to that

Sharon Duval (22:29):

<laugh>. I am so used to that. And that is one of the gifts of getting old, is that you, you just, you just realize that other people’s opinions Yeah. Yeah. You, you have to acknowledge them. But when you believe in what you’re doing, then you just do it. You just do it. And, um, thank you for sharing that, because that is magic to me. Um, when you can connect with a child in the most unconventional way and open that door for the child to then look outside of their own head out of this, out of their own kind of sensory consuming world. That’s the beginning.

Stephanie Landis (23:32):

Yeah. Do you have any ways that you get parents more comfortable and or even like new clinicians more comfortable? Because it is a shift. Usually when you go into a, a school and even some therapy offices, when you see a child that might be, you know, stimming off of a stick, they’re usually like, how do we stop them from doing this and doing what we would like? Instead of like, maybe if you join them or try this other technique, then we can shift it to having connection. It’s a big shift in thinking what are ways that you get parents to kind of, I guess the word would be like buy in.

Sharon Duval (24:14):

Right? The way that works the best

Speaker 3 (24:23):

<affirmative>

Sharon Duval (24:25):

Is to, in many, in, in many situations, let the parent watch me. Because I believe that if I take my time to observe that child and wait, I can find a connection. And when the parent sees that, then there is this

Speaker 3 (25:05):

Aha.

Sharon Duval (25:08):

I, I’ve never seen my child respond that way. And that’s how it happens most of the time. Now, there are times, honestly, when those moments do happen, the parent might be there in the session, but they miss it. But that gives me insight too, because perhaps the parent’s ability to read the child’s signals and recognize those moments might be constricted. And that’s real. And then that helps me to, to understand how best to coach that parent, how best to get that parent involved in the, um, in the, in the process.

Stephanie Landis (25:59):

So it sounds like you go back to treating the parents like you treat the children.

Sharon Duval (26:03):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I’m glad to do it because when you can, as you well know, help a parent to connect with their child and see that child in a different way, you can really make a difference. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:22):

There’s really

Sharon Duval (26:23):

Nothing more rewarding than that. That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

Stephanie Landis (26:26):

And with parents, you have to build the relationship and build the trust, just like with the children.

Sharon Duval (26:30):

You do. You do. And there were many, many scary moments in my younger years of having parents in the session and coaching parents. Many humbling moments that left me pretty. My equilibrium was <laugh>, <laugh> was quite thrown off, took me weeks to recover <laugh>, because when you are a professional, you want to appear competent. You want to appear as if you know what you’re doing. And that, and when that is challenged, it takes a lot of reflecting to grow and learn. But they were some of the best experiences that I’ve had, um, because I have to stay humble because when you are walking into a family’s life, to a child’s life, um, it’s a very, it’s very sacred ground. And you must do it carefully, respectfully. And, and that’s what I try to do.

Stephanie Landis (28:10):

Yeah. Yeah. I often thank the parents for giving us the opportunity to work with their kids here, because I know it’s it’s a lot. And they open themselves up to being so vulnerable and That’s right. And it’s hard.

Sharon Duval (28:24):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know in the therapy session, um, at least, I mean, I do, I make myself vulnerable. I really do. Because I, I, I’m not trying to impress anyone at any time. There were days when I was <laugh>, I can’t deny that because, you know, it’s just kind of what you do <laugh>, you wanna appear like you have a lot of knowledge and ability, but of course, you know, I realize that doesn’t work. Right. That kind of gets you off on the wrong track. So I just get on the floor, I get on the swing, whatever I have to do to connect with that child, I will do a handstand if I can still get up <laugh>, whatever. And I am so comfortable with that. I really am. And I’m so glad that I’m comfortable with that because it’s liberating. Yeah. It really is. It’s so liberating.

Stephanie Landis (29:46):

So we’ve talked a lot about speech pathologists having training in the d I r floor time model. Are there other therapies or therapists that get trained in this model as well?

Sharon Duval (29:56):

Absolutely. I think just about every disciplined that’s, you know, involved in, um, in the, uh, in the therapeutic circles, mental health, occupational therapy, uh, physical therapists, music therapist, um, physicians, um, physician assistants. I mean, the list goes on.

Stephanie Landis (30:21):

Yeah. Yes. I didn’t know that physicians and physicians assistants would get trained as well.

Sharon Duval (30:26):

In fact, uh, when I was coming along in the institute, this was back in the nineties, no, not nineties, two thousands, when you actually had to travel to the DC area, um, for about a week in the summer, um, 12 hour days. And, um, at the old Xerox Center, which is hard for someone who’s navigationally challenged, I always got lost. Um, um, in my, uh, groups. I had some physicians and that was super exciting to be able to learn and grow alongside them. Yeah. Pediatricians and, and, um, let’s see. I think it was mostly pediatricians. Yeah. That, that were, um, that were in, in, in my groups.

Stephanie Landis (31:19):

Mimi, do you have anyone at CARRUTH that’s trained?

Sharon Duval (31:22):

We do. We have an occupational therapist who’s currently trained, and we’re sending two other occupational therapists to be trained in January. And then we have both of our language development class SLPs, who are trained in Floortime as well.

Stephanie Landis (31:39):

Yeah. And I think Parish is getting quite a few of the early childhood SLPs trained, if I’m correct.

Sharon Duval (31:46):

Yes. Yes. And there are a few that are, have already been through the training on campus. Yeah.

(31:55):

What, um, Sharon, this is a, might be a hard question, but I’m thinking of those families who are just getting a hard diagnosis and they’re of course going on the internet, cuz that’s what we all do to find out more information and they’re getting all of these different kind of treatment methodologies thrown at them. What advice would you give that family on how to navigate what they would feel would be the best approach for their child? What I tell families, and I, and I, many of my parents come in in such a confused state mm-hmm. <affirmative> about, okay, what do I do? And you’re, you know, everyone’s telling me so many different things, and I tell them that you, you have to do what makes sense to you. You, you can’t just, uh, ignore the, your own inner voice because I, I, I have some parents who will say to me, well, um, you know, I, I think a, a different approach, uh, might be better for my child. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I say to them, that’s what you need to do because you what, whatever course you take it, it needs to make sense to you. And if for some reason along the way it stops making sense or you’re not getting the results that you had hoped for, that you had expected, then you can always reevaluate what direction that you need to go in. You have to, you have to go with what makes sense to you.

Stephanie Landis (33:49):

Along those same lines, what populations of students do you most frequently work with?

Sharon Duval (33:56):

Mostly individuals, um, who are in the autism spectrum. I do have, um, um, clients who have, um, diagnosis of adhd, the more extreme kinds of, um, um, those that are perhaps, uh, more, uh, where there are more constrictions along that line. Um, I probably have, I’ve worked with some individuals who have had, uh, diagnosis of, uh, bipolar, these are usually kids who are a little bit older. And, and because again, you know, there are these sensory processing components in all of these diagnosis that inform the development of social emotional, uh, and communication skills.

Stephanie Landis (34:59):

Are there any common misconceptions surrounding the D I R floor time model?

Sharon Duval (35:04):

Oh, I’m so glad you asked. Yes. Following the child’s lead, that is one of the biggest misconceptions because people interpret that as, okay, you just do whatever the child wants you to do. <laugh>. Yeah. That

Stephanie Landis (35:21):

Is, there’s no boundaries.

Sharon Duval (35:22):

<laugh> no boundaries. <laugh>, yeah. Following the child’s lead means discovering the intentions behind the child’s behavior and then using that information to meet them where they are, and then to connect with them in meaningful ways that will give them the desire to come out of their own worlds and connect with others and act on the world around them. For children who struggle with connecting meaningfully, we have a tendency to act on them, whether it be through prompting, physical prompting, or directing. That’s what we do, because that’s kind of what we know. But you want to interact with that child in such a way that it harnesses their effort and compels them to do something, even if it’s the wrong thing. Because if the child is doing something, now you have something to work with in a more tangible way. And then it is through that information, then you can build on those circles of communication. Because d i r talks a lot about the child initiating, and I remember when Stanley gave me some, Stanley Greenspan gave me some feedback after watching a video. He said, she, you have to get that child to initiate. And I’m like, well, how do you get a child to initiate? I mean, you know, he doesn’t, that’s just a part of, you know, autism.

(37:30):

Now I know. You have to present the therapeutic environment and yourself in such a way that compels that child to want to do something. And that’s initiation and that’s following their lead. And that’s following their lead. Got

Speaker 3 (37:53):

It.

Stephanie Landis (37:54):

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And is often a misconception that, that I hear as well.

Sharon Duval (38:00):

A a, absolutely. So let’s say for example, um, the child picks up a toy and throws it at me, that’s an initiation. Now the tra traditional way of responding would be to two, no, no throwing toys. Well, I’ve just closed

(38:32):

That possible circle of communication for a child who has very little body control, very little body awareness, very little understanding of what to do with toys, especially, you know, traditional ways of playing with toys. Um, that would not be a matched response. A more matched response would be, oh, I got a basket. Throw it in the basket. Here’s the basket. Throw a soft, pass a soft toy to the child. Here, throw it again. Here’s the basket. Now I’ve got circles of communication going, reciprocity. And that then can lead to other things. Cuz we have to remember as speech language pathologist, you have to build reciprocity at the non-verbal level before you’re gonna get it at the verbal level. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn as an s o p.

Stephanie Landis (39:45):

Yeah. You wanna jump right

Sharon Duval (39:46):

To the talking, let’s, let’s good to talk <laugh>. But there’s all these little micro goals that go before that, right? That’s right. Yeah. You have to build upon them. That’s right. That’s right.

Stephanie Landis (39:57):

And I could see how it could be a big shift into thinking about that being, throwing the ball into a basket instead of jumping on the behavior and being like, no, this is an inappropriate behavior. That’s right. And instead jumping in and being like, oh, now we have an activity we can do together. Absolutely. But shifting it so that there is the boundary. If we don’t just throw cars at us,

Sharon Duval (40:22):

<laugh>. That’s right. That’s right. <laugh>.

Stephanie Landis (40:24):

But here we can throw, let’s

Sharon Duval (40:26):

Throw That’s right. Let’s throw, and we can throw the cars into the basket. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Stephanie Landis (40:31):

Yeah.

Sharon Duval (40:31):

Yes. And then after, let’s say that, uh, the child just then arbitrarily at some point later in the session or another day, um, throws the, throws a car at you. So then you can refer back to the session before or the game, oh, play the game name, play the game, throw the cards in the basket. So now you are giving language to this game. And, and then even though, even if the child isn’t verbal, you still are giving words to it. And perhaps the way that the child will then maybe later communicate that is perhaps through a picture of throwing cars into a basket. If the child is at that level of, uh, of, um, you know, know, uh, speech development or if, you know they’re not verbal yet, um, there’s all kinds of alternate forms of communication that you can use to then label this game. So then the child does not need to, uh, engage in that behavior.

Stephanie Landis (41:56):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Mimi Branham (41:59):

I’ve learned so much from you.

Sharon Duval (42:01):

Oh. So

Mimi Branham (42:02):

I’m so inspired. You’re, you’re obviously so passionate about what you do and so motivated to work with the families that you work with. So I really thank you for sharing your, your time and your, your thoughts.

Sharon Duval (42:14):

Thank you for having

Stephanie Landis (42:16):

Me. Well, we’re not quite done yet. Oh,

Sharon Duval (42:18):

<laugh>. Okay. Great.

Stephanie Landis (42:19):

We’re gonna put you on the spot. At the end of every episode, we ask our guests if they had one piece of advice, and it could be related to today’s topic or just any advice that you’d like to give to give our listeners, what would that advice be?

Sharon Duval (42:35):

I think that advice would be to slow down. And in our world, that can be very hard to do. Slow down, center yourself. Take the time to observe and get to know the child, the people in your circles, and be curious about who they are, what they think, and what they know and how they feel. Because when we take the time to do that with our families and with our children, and with each other, then we stand a much greater chance of having the kind of relationships that will be supportive and satisfying.

Stephanie Landis (43:45):

That’s beautiful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you.

Sharon Duval (43:48):

You’re welcome.

Speaker 5 (43:50):

<laugh>.

Stephanie Landis (43:53):

Thank you for listening to the Un Babbled podcast. For more information on today’s episode, please see our episode description. For more information on the parish school, visit parish school.org. And if you’re not already, don’t forget to subscribe to the Un Babbled Podcast on your app of choice. And if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to leave a rating and review. A special thank you to Stig Daniels, Andy Williams, Leslie Holly and Molly Weisselberg for all their hard work behind the scenes. Thanks again for listening.