Stephanie Landis:

Today’s episode, we are speaking with Amanda McMickle about nature and outdoor learning things that are very, very important and part of the heart and soul of here at the parish school. So we’re excited to speak with you about that today. So thank you.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, so happy to be here.

Stephanie Landis:

Yeah. So what is your background?

Amanda McMickle:

So I was a public school teacher for 13 years in San Antonio and got my master’s degree in teacher leadership and kind of felt like I was ready for the next step. And in San Antonio we launched a city run pre-K called pre-K four sa. And so I joined that team and what was interesting about that is each, they had four campuses and each one had a focus. And the one I joined was the north campus, which was focused on nature. And so that really started my kind of the research and the backing for nature-based learning. And then from there I was just there for about a year and the San Antonio Zoo was growing their zoo school. And so they invited me to be the director of what became Will Smith Zoo School. And so I helped to launch that and did that for five years, took a little break, did some what I call action research and consulted with schools all over the country. And now I’m back at San Antonio Zoo as the vice president of education.

Stephanie Landis:

So when you went into education, have you always had a heart for nature or have you been a nature person or were you just like, oh, now I’m at this nature school and that started a passion?

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I think that I always valued the fact that children learn in various ways and are all capable of learning and thriving given the environment that helps them do that, if that makes sense. And so when I was a teacher teaching first grade, I was the one that was taking the class outside to connect math with baseball and we would play baseball and just trying to connect with all the various ways my students learned. And then like I said, when I got into pre-K four SA, I started really learning the research behind outdoor learning and just the being outdoors and the benefits for kids. And I have to say when I came to zoo school, it was eyeopening because every year I had parents who would comment to my office and say, we haven’t heard from you and we’ve been asked to leave for preschools.

Is everything all right? And I would ask them who their child is and I’d be like, they’re thriving. And it really hit me that every family should have the opportunity to have their child in an environment that allows their children to be the best version of themselves. And nature seemed to provide that for a lot of children that were struggling in traditional settings. So I think it is not something that all children kind of need that environment, but all of them should have the opportunity to learn and thrive in the outdoors. And let’s be honest, our planet needs future stewards to care for it. And the bottom line is when children learn that they can contribute to animals and wildlife and their community around the world, they learn that they have purpose and all living things have value.

Meredith Krimmel:

When you moved out of the public school and started in the pre-K with the nature-based learning and then to the zoo school, what were some of the benefits you were seeing firsthand? What were you seeing in your students that kind of piqued your interest and thought, Ooh, this is something I really want to look into?

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, it really, I would say what stood out the most in all years in all classes, and this I even saw in the teachers, is the focus on the natural curiosity of children. And so it just, nature-based learning just lends itself to that learner centered or what we call a nature-based learning emergent curriculum. Meaning today the kids will go outside and notice that there’s a chill in the air and they go to the zoo every day. So they’ll probably say, let’s go to the zoo and see how if the animals are behaving differently, and what do we predict and what do we wonder? And so it’s really trying to focus on that intrinsic love of learning. And so that’s why I think a lot of times we see any behavior problems or challenging issues just go away because children see themselves as part of the learning journey. Leading the learning journey rather than passive or expected just to intake information. And so that’s the biggest thing is, and it’s changing all the time. We could somewhat predict this cooler weather we got this morning, but it’s not always correct. And so it lends itself to spontaneous learning that children that might struggle in traditional settings just thrive in.

Stephanie Landis:

Yeah, that’s one of the things that we really noticed here is the shift in, I guess the outward behavior, but even just regulation, children seem to be able to be more regulated when they’re outside and being able to move and organically interact with their environment instead of just the more traditional sitting and passive learning as you put it.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, and I think there’s one reason for that and one phenomenon about that. One of the reasons is when children are sitting in a classroom and there’s one that maybe needs to move or wiggle or tap a pencil or you notice those things right away you are like, stop doing that or something. But when children are outdoors, if they’re sitting in the grass listening to a story and they’re just fiddling with blades of grass or you just don’t notice it as much so they can show up in a different way. And then the phenomenon is the regulation. And we talk a lot about this because there are students who struggle within four walls, and so they’re moving around, they’re climbing on top of the tables, they’re going underneath, they’re just struggling with getting still, and then they go outside and it’s automatically they’re able to focus. And it’s a phenomena because we don’t really know why that happens. Some think it’s just the actual removal of the walls, while others think that maybe nature provides the exact amount of sensory input children need to focus. So feeling the wind on their skin, feeling the warmth of the sun provides them a way to regulate themselves a little bit more. So yeah, I completely agree. The self-regulation is a big part of that in the outdoors as well.

Meredith Krimmel:

And you mentioned about how in nature it’s much more child led and a lot more curiosity and wonder, and I just find it so amazing just for everybody, but especially children, how much more engaged in learning you are when you are actually interested sitting in passive learning. You might not be interested in how many apples Johnny had and shared with so-and-so, but if you’re outside playing baseball, that might be something that you’re really engaged with. It’s a lot easier to understand, comprehend and learn the material.

Amanda McMickle:

And I always say encourage my teachers to try their best to make learning sticky, meaning incorporate as many senses as you can. And if we can incorporate, and this kind of follows the wall or philosophy, but the head, heart and hands, the learning will stick, meaning head meaning they’re really thinking cognitively about why this is happening or what they think will happen next heart, meaning that they are emotionally connected to this. We saw Fox and I have pets at home and I’m just curious about this fox and how it’s connected to the pets. I love that part of it. And then the hands is just that tangible hands-on experiences. So a lot of times, yes, the outdoors kind of provides that head, heart, and hands are the full senses engagement that really makes learning sticky for kids.

Stephanie Landis:

I often see in education that it’ll start with pre-Ks and a lot of the pre-K programs are more apt to be nature and outdoor and outdoor all day long. And then it seems like something switches and it’s like, oh, they hit kindergarten in first grade, now they have to do some real learning. We have to go back inside. Have you worked in the elementary level? Did you see benefits still for the elementary level where they didn’t suddenly lose real learning by still engaging with the nature?

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, for some reason we make a lot of assumptions as kids get older that they need more of. Again, going into that teacher led instruction where it’s more of like, okay, they may go outside, but we’re going to go outside to do this and we’re looking for this and we’re going to document that, rather than letting that curiosity really come out. And when I say it’s an assumption, I had an experience with an elementary school where I come from the early childhood world and I was asked to go sit in on a class and lead it because the teacher had walked out because she was just fed up with the kids and was upset and she walked out. So I was going into an already kind of interesting environment if we could say that, and was, I think it was fourth or fifth grade. And so I went in and I was doing my early child stuff like, Hey guys, my name’s Ms.

Mag Ol and I do the nature-based learning here. Some of you have seen me around. And so I just started leaning in with curiosity. So I was like, tell me about how often you play outside or what you do outside. And it was so interesting because these kids, and this was an inner city school on the east side of the city, and they said, miss, a lot of adults think that we just want to play video games or want to be on our phones all the time. We don’t have anywhere to go play. I live in an apartment complex, we just play in the parking lot. They just were really giving me their truest kind of perspective on play and being outdoors. And it was just eyeopening because we tend to say, oh, kids, right? Kids, kids. And it’s really not the case. They really would like to be outside and they would like opportunities to be curious and for adults to say, tell me what you want to learn about.

We just tend to not do that. I believe much of it, especially in public schools, is driven because they are on a curriculum that is very rigid and outlined to ensure that they do well on the state’s standardized tests. So that’s what I see. But there’s even high schoolers, I mean let’s be honest, there are adults who just, every once in a while it’s nice to go outside and just look up into the sky at the trees and wonder and connect. And I often when I see big trees, I think, oh, what you have seen in a hundred years that you’ve been on this planet, it grounds us and it’s so beneficial and we kind of forget

Stephanie Landis:

That as Kit Gilder, I was

Meredith Krimmel:

Just thinking back to when you were talking about a kid fiddling with the grass and how that’s less disruptive than maybe a kid tapping their pencil. And it just made me think sometimes just being in a different environment, the expectations are a little bit different. The same behavior can look very different. And I think about all these kids who do need to move. A lot of our kids here at parish school, they just need to move. And nature has been a wonderful way for us to give them a way to move, but also still learn and focus. And sometimes I think it’s just a good reminder, even if nature’s not in the pictures, sometimes just expectations need to be a little different and a shift in what learning looks like.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, I think that the expectations, and I think right alongside that is control. And teachers are used to having control in the classroom, and many of them feel that if they were to take their kids outside, there’s so many more variables thrown in and they have to release a little bit of that control. And I’ll give you an example we can all relate to is a lot of teachers will say, I have a kid who’s always leaving class and running out of class. If I go outside and they run off, that’s my responsibility. But if you think about it and kids that are all children, it’s intrinsic to us and it’s in us to figure out control and how to lead and follow. And so a lot of times when you take those kind of that control out, kids will self-regulate, right? It’s kind of like when you are at a new place with your kids and you say, now don’t go far, and they kind of inch their way away from you and they’re looking at you, when are they going to tell me to come back?

But if you say, your expectation is we’re all stay together, ICU, you see me, the kids eventually will get to a place where they move away enough where they’re like, okay, now I’m going to go back. I don’t feel like this is safe for me to be this far. But a lot of it’s about control and being outside kind of lends itself for some teachers to feel uncomfortable, but it allows the children to say, let me figure out how I fit into this world of this control, which is helpful for some of them to manage their own behaviors rather than always trying to figure out how to be resistant or resistant to the teachers control. So yeah, it’s very interesting to see how that

Stephanie Landis:

Plays out in outdoor learning.

I can definitely see that as children go out and they also take a little more ownership, I think of the outdoor spaces even than indoor spaces on campus. We have a lot of loose parts and sometimes it’s easier to get the kids to clean up the loose parts outdoors than it is to clean up and keep track of their pencils and all of the things in the classroom. And they will remember where one looks like a piece of trash to me, but one random piece item is on the playground and put it away and keep track of it, but they have no idea where their pencil is in the classroom.

Amanda McMickle:

Yes, yes. And in the environmental education world, we say kids will grow up to care for what they love, and that almost takes it down to even for the things that are in their immediate environment. It’s so true. When they feel like when they can see themselves in their learning, yes, they’re more likely to help manage it and create it and take care of it and pack it up and all of those things. You’re exactly right.

Stephanie Landis:

One of the other areas that we’ve noticed that our kids really thrive in with the nature-based learning is that they have, like you said, more of that buy-in their heart is there, even if it’s just doing math outside and using the things in the environment around to do their multiplication or addition or other problems that it just seems to have those nature-based manipulatives just pull them in a little more than even just being in the classroom and using plastic counters.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, there’s research that has shown that the less amount of plastic in our immediate environment, there’s a direct correlation with our anxiety levels, which is very interesting and why a lot of schools will try to not only do more outdoor learning, but in bringing nature into the classroom as well. You’re exactly right. And over the years as nature-based learning and outdoor learning has gotten more popular, many people have tried to identify a definition for it, and there was a group led by Kathy Jordan out of Minnesota that did it well and basically saying, you’re doing nature-based learning when you’re incorporating academic achievement. So there is learning happening, personal growth. So that’s that connection to it. And then environmental stewardship, and I think you’re right, when children can manipulate things in nature and understand that all living things have a purpose and they start understanding the ecosystems and how the bugs eat, the plants and the mammals eat the bugs and how everything connects, they start realizing I have purpose on this planet too. And in my perspective, that’s what our youth needs the most right now is an attention on mental health. So

Stephanie Landis:

Nature connection also provides that as well.

Meredith Krimmel:

I was also reading about how nature-based learning is connected to better physical wellbeing and health of children. Can you speak a little bit about that and what you know about that?

Amanda McMickle:

Right here in Texas, the Department of Human and Health Services has an area that they focus on childhood obesity and the research that they read through and conducted really pointed to the fact that children who struggle with childhood obesity the most are often in childcare centers and schools all day every day. And so by doing three things, it impacts the physical health of kids, and that’s by providing them opportunities to organically move their bodies. And I say this, and we kind of know this, but there’s so many schools that I visit that they have a playground and maybe a small perimeter around the playground where the kids can explore, and then there’s this whole campus behind the playground and usually it’s mowed down. It might have a tree or two, but the kids aren’t really allowed to go back there. So we do still limit their movement quite a bit.

And they’ve even incorporated some best practices to, for example, incorporating looping paths because with the research shows that when there’s a looping path, kids are more drawn to get on it and move their body around there. And then the other one is understanding where their food comes from. So doing gardening, allowing them to grow their food and then incorporate it into a recipe for them to, like we were saying, we keep talking about taking ownership, but taking ownership of where their food comes in now, how that impacts how they feel and their health. And then the last one that we briefly talked about with the mental health is the emotional connections. In the natural world, there is connections between just emotional wellbeing and then the agency around physical health. And when kids and adults see purpose in their lives, see a connection to something bigger and greater than they are, they’re more likely to go on that bike ride or the walk or eat the healthy meal because they see themselves as an important part of the larger ecosystem.

Stephanie Landis:

So one of the things you mentioned is having that free room to just naturally explore the place. And something I think people are most surprised about when they come onto our campus, the parish school, is that we let the kids climb the trees. And again, most of it comes from the teachers being worried about, oh no, I am responsible for this child. So there are still rules around it and safety things, but we found that the majority of the kids are really, really, really safe when they’re climbing these trees. And we have an area called the Bear Cave that they go and they roam and they go in and out of these paths and they’re climbing the trees and up and down, and they are so much more well regulated. And one of the things that our nature people on campus and play expert Jill Wood talk about often is having that risky play that I think, I know you just can’t get in a classroom. You are not allowed a hundred percent. It’s more risky probably to climb on the table and stand on the table to climb up and down the trees. And so that element of pushing those limits, as you said, and having that risky play, it’s just something that can’t happen inside the classroom that seems to be extremely beneficial for the children when they’re outdoors.

Amanda McMickle:

You’re exactly right. And in our society, we are very overprotective. There’s been so many terms, I’m a parent, so I’m right there with everybody. So this is not a judgment call, but they talk about the helicopter parent that the lawnmower parent that just mos out down every issue in front of their kids so they don’t have to experience it and just keep them safe all the time. Safe, safe, safe. And yes, that is completely out of love, but what it doesn’t provide is for the children to experience emotional highs and lows so that they can eventually regulate their emotions. So being up in a tree and for the children to be able to say, this is getting a little high for me. What should I do about it? How should I resolve this versus everything being, Nope, we stay. Nope, we don’t do that. And I think when you flip the narrative and you think about how children just out of evolution, children are always trying to challenge themselves to be a better version of themselves.

So oftentimes kids are not scaling the side of a playgrounds or a play scape to be bad or to break the rules. They’re trying to physically challenge themselves, mastered everything else that playground has to offer. And so they’re just trying to get better and stronger. And so if you think of it that way, it provides teachers seeing it as an opportunity of looks like you’re needing something right, and let’s try to find a way that is an appropriate risk for you to do that rather than it becoming a hazard. But it is inherent that children need to take physical risks. I would even push it to say they need the opportunity to take social risks. So rather than saying, okay, you guys need to let him play and do this and it’s his turn, right, orchestrate all the play environments, they need to have that feeling like, I’m going to go see if I can play with the big boys and I’m kind of nervous. And they need to have that emotional kind of up and down so that they really understand what accomplishment feels like, what nervous feels like, so that as they get older and they have more opportunities on a grander scale to be nervous about a job interview or things like that, they are prepared for it. We always need to be thinking about we’re preparing them for their future and really have our vision on the long game rather than are they happy in the second now, are they happy in the second? We need to kind of

Stephanie Landis:

Extend it and think about that long path.

Meredith Krimmel:

You mentioned the kid in the tree like, oh, it might feel a little high for me. What is that? I don’t have children who ever feel that feeling. They just keep going

Stephanie Landis:

Up. That is my daughter. And it is a hundred percent like you said, to prove something to herself. We joke that if there, especially physically, but if there is a easy way to do it a medium way and the absolute hardest, she will always pick the absolute hardest. And we’re

Meredith Krimmel:

Like, I’ll put the straight wall up, please.

Stephanie Landis:

Yes. Yeah. Yes. And she always likes to jump off things, so she’s always finding things higher and higher. And then same way in her academic and other areas of life, I don’t know where she got the perfectionist gene. I have no idea. Can’t find that tree that the apple fell from. But yeah, it’s interesting to watch them, but then our kids feel such a sense of accomplishment when they’ve gone through it, and I love that all these things that you’re mentioning that can happen while you’re learning academics outside the social and the physical and the other things are those skills that we do seem to be missing when we’re focusing on that strict curriculum of we have to hit every single in Texas, we have the teaks. When you have to hit every single one of the teaks and you’re just going through speeding through curriculum, you’re kind of missing those opportunities for the social for them, figuring out how to negotiate and navigate and have that of the risk taking of them moving their bodies and taking ownership of their learning. That I think the nature-based learning lends itself so well to that. If you’re only spending time inside the classroom in a strict environment, you’re kind of missing a more global picture for these kids for their long-term future.

Amanda McMickle:

What you defined right there is resiliency. And our kids need to be resilient physically, mentally, and emotionally, and that contributes right to the academics because if they see a test as something that they can’t do or they’re too worried or then that can impact their grades, because we’ve all know that when you’re anxious and taking a test, even if your knowledge is high, that anxiety can have a negative impact on how you perform on that test. And so I think that’s what risky play provides. That’s what that connection to the natural world provides, where if you’re on a more traditional play scape, it’s built and it’s, that’s why accidents happen because kids know they’ve mastered the playground and they know one step on the ladder is the same distance from the next accidents happen, but in nature, you have to kind of build that resiliency because when you’re walking on a log, and you’ll even see kids outside when they’re walking on a wobbly log, they’re looking at their feet and they’re going slow and they’re just kind of realizing they’re in control.

They are going to have dictate the outcome based on their preparation and how they manage something. And that’s the same as academics. They have to understand that they’re in control of how they prepare for a test, how they work through the processes of when they get nervous or what have you. So absolutely, and then there’s all this science kids are ready to read when they can cross the midline, which is an invisible line that runs down the front of your body, and that can only happen through throwing and kicking and moving and wrestling and all those things for them to build the ability to cross the midline as well as some of vestibular connections in the ear. We will prepare them to learn how to read as well. And so we kind of forget that too. We just think flashcards, but there’s a whole body connection that get kids ready to learn as well.

Stephanie Landis:

Yeah. One of my favorite traditions that they have at parish in the elementary level is that the majority of the days, they start by going on a morning nature walk and we will get a new teacher in that’s feeling worried that they’re not going to hit all of their standards. And so they’ll cut the nature walk a few days more a week, or they’ll just cut it out and then they’ll be like, oh my goodness, the kids aren’t as regulated. They’re not attending, they’re struggling with all these things. And then we’re like, well, maybe spend the 10 minutes, especially here in Houston where most of these kids have just spent like 35 minutes in traffic just to get to school and woke up so early. And then they’ll bring the nature walk back in. And that just movement and the running and the throwing and the crossing midline and exploring outside tends to lead to better mornings when they sit down and then have to do their intense reading intervention in the mornings or their intense math that we have blocked off in the morning and they’re more ready to just dig in and go because they do in our setting, need that more explicit direct teaching of the reading and the math, but we can balance it and marry it with having those opportunities, like you said, a lot of it is just about having opportunities to explore in nature.

Amanda McMickle:

And we have a great researcher by the name of Dr. Debbie Ray out of Texas Christian University, TCU, here in Texas, and she works with schools, they’re called the link schools. And the kids get a, what people call a brain break every hour for just 10, 15 minutes, and they go outside and they do this in Finland. That’s where she explored before she got into the link schools, and it’s an actual research field at TCU. So they have researchers going in and comparing the link schools to non link schools and academically, emotionally, they’re all achieving and doing better in school when they get just a little bit of a break, a breath of fresh air, move their body, say hi to a friend, connect for a minute, and then they go back into, so it’s interesting. It wasn’t just that they do well with outdoor learning, when they come back into the classroom, they’re more attentive, they’re more focused. And it was interesting to hear how they researched this. It was like they counted how many times a kid looked up or away or got out of their seat and it was significantly decreased if they could just have a break in between subject or content areas, which we get as adults, right? We’ll have a meeting and before the next one starts, we’re like, I’m going to go get a glass of water, I’m going to go outside. We get it, and if we get it, then surely our kids would benefit from it as well.

Meredith Krimmel:

If you’re a parent listening to this or a teacher listening to this who child or is in a public school or you work in a public school, what kinds of things can you do in your day-to-day to help children get what they need in their connection with nature without obviously disrupting the entire ISD system?

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, I think the thing that we need most in schools with regard to parents, teachers, school leaders is being a compassionate disruptor, asking a lot of questions because in a lot of schools things have been in operation that have been in operation since the school opened. And so asking questions, why can’t we have two recesses instead of one? Or could we try a pilot program where we do this in this school? There’s so many teachers, and this is such an interesting thing, I’ll talk to teachers and they’ll be like, I would love to take my kids outside more, but my admin, I don’t think they would let me do that. And so I’ll go to the admin and I’ll say, what do you think about your teachers doing more outdoor learning? And they said, oh, I love my teachers to do that. I just need to know the plan.

If I just see kids running outside, I don’t know exactly what it is, but if they come to me and say, this is the lesson we’re doing outside and this is the reason why we’re doing it, then I’ll be on board for sure. So there’s a lot of just assumptions that we can’t do something or they wouldn’t be open to something. I’ve talked to PTOs and PTAs where they’re looking for things to invest in this school or what to work on, and if someone would just bring up, consider an outdoor learning environment for this school, they would be open to it. So it’s just kind of asking questions, leaning in to understand and be curious, just like we were saying that’s good for our kids, for parents and teachers to do the same. And also I had that experience with the students, ask them questions.

You might be surprised. I know Houston recently in the last few years adopted a co boar, which is a children’s outdoor bill of rights. San Antonio is working on one right now as well. And we surveyed kids all over the city from every nook and cranny of San Antonio and ask them their barriers for going outside, what they like to do outside all of those questions. And the very last one was, in one word, what does nature mean to you? And so we as adults thought they’re going to say fun or hot or things like that, but overwhelmingly across the city, the most widely used word was freedom. And that really hit us hard because the fact that kids see time outside as something as positive and empowering as freedom was very interesting that they use that word. But when we hone down to it, and we talked earlier about control, like I said, I’m a parent and so I’m constantly, here’s your backpack, get in the car, we’re late.

And for them to, I could see where when they’re outside and those voices kind of go away and they can just be, rather than expectation of hurrying or finding their shoes or finishing the test or getting in line when they can just be, that is powerful. So yeah, I think leaning in with a lot of curiosity, being part of the conversation, districts across our state all have, they call ’em different things, but many of them call ’em like a shack, a school health advisory council, I think that stands for. And so inquire about that, be a part of that because all about the health and wellbeing of students within a school district. So that’s another way to be involved. But my biggest thing would just be to lean in with compassionate curiosity because we all need compassion right now, but our children need us to be curious and to kind of think about the future with them in mind.

Stephanie Landis:

That’s fantastic. And for teachers that might be listening, where would you encourage them to start if they’re looking to bring a little more nature learning into their environment, whether they’re in a public school or a private school setting?

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I just finished my dissertation study on the practical fidelity of nature-based learning in public schools and how I worked with a group of teachers. And what we found to be successful is to start with the end in mind. So knowing I want to get to where I can do one lesson a day outside or whatever they decided they wanted to do and then they went out and explored their whole campus with a fresh set of eyes. So a lot of, like I said, people think like, oh, we can’t go back there. Well, let’s go back there and see what’s back there and is it safe? And how do we feel when we’re out there? What do we think? Take your students out there, what do you guys think about learning out here? A lot of times teachers say, let’s go learn outside.

And I always say, go out there with the kids first and say, what do you think about learning here? What would we need? What do you think about it? Get their insight on it and then really articulate the story with the administrators. So this is my plan. This is how I’m going to keep the kids safe. This is how I’m going to document learning. And with the parents, we’re really going to try to go outside more. I’d love to hear if your kids are coming home and talking about learning more or less or what they’re going home and talking about in the past, and I’ve been in education over 20 years forever. Great teaching used to feel like we had to close the door and do it behind the closed doors because we’re like, we don’t want anyone to get upset not using the curriculum or this way or that way.

Now I feel like our future need us to be really open about that and communicating. We’re going to try this, give us feedback. How is it working? How is it not? But be realistic with yourself. If you’re a teacher and starting the school year in August trying to go outside every day, it’s hot. No one’s going to like it. Being realistic with yourself and getting that feedback from the kids, what do you guys think? What do? Or being honest saying, when we went outside, I didn’t feel like I had everyone’s attention. I felt like everyone was all over the place. See what the kids say, let them help plan and be a part of that process oftentimes will help it be more successful. And then document, document. I can’t tell you how many times teachers get into outdoor learning and they love it. And then I’m like, tell me your story.

You didn’t wake up one day and do it. And they’re like, I don’t know, it just could have happened, but it’s all part of me now. And I always tell them like, oh, I wish you would’ve have documented the story because when you’re year two is now someone else’s year two. And they can learn a lot from that because honestly, in every teacher that I’ve talked to, it’s a personal journey, not just in their students but themselves. Oftentimes I hear teachers say, I remember now why I got into this occupation. I enjoy coming to work more now that we’re doing outdoor learning. So it’s broader too. So if they can document the story, that’d be great as well.

Meredith Krimmel:

Just think about you using the kids, using the word freedom to talk about nature and being outside and just how many of our kids probably feel like they have no control over their day. And I keep going back to that and just being like, if you could give them just 10 or 15 minutes of freedom and control during their day, how much of a difference they would make for them, not just in their own emotional wellbeing, but just their happiness of being at school and willing to work with you in general.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah, I was thinking as you were talking, I was thinking about my own kids and when I was a kid, my parents really knew where I was. I was on my bike, I was all with my friends. I was in complete control of where I was going, how I got there, me getting home on time. I didn’t have a cell phone. And a few months ago, my boys and I were at home and it was pouring rain, and I told them, I dare you to run all the way down to the street and back. And they looked at me and they were like, I’m going to get wet. I’m like, I know it’s going to be great. They looked at me like I was nuts, but how many times as a kid was I caught outside in the rain? And so I said, come on, just do it.

Just try it. And they were just like, oh, kind of reluctant. I don’t want to go out there and get all wet. They ran down and when they were running back, both of them had the biggest smile. They were just like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. And the water feels cold, and it was just a sensory explosion. So yeah, I think it is, it’s giving them childhood back in a way that is acceptable in our society needs to be at the forefront of us as parents because we can say, I was saying kids these days, our kids don’t want to, or they only want to do this, but we as adults have created this new childhood with which they’re working, living in, and so we need to make it one that they can thrive in and experience safe, but a childhood that really made us who we are today.

Stephanie Landis:

For sure. Yeah, my kids have a definite different experience growing up than I do. Although I will say I am very, very lucky to live on a street where there are other kids their age and parents who are also okay with the children playing out and hopping from house to house. And we always know that we can call that person and be like, is my kids still at your house? No, they went to that house. Okay, thanks. But I know that it’s rare, but I’m hoping that it’s becoming more frequent again to find like-minded parents who are letting their kids have a little bit of that freedom back and explore outdoors in that way after staying inside all day at school. They just want to, sometimes they do want to come home and first watch TV for a little bit and then go explore, which is fine. Yeah.

Stephanie Landis:

Well, it has been so fantastic to chat with you. I really have enjoyed hearing you talk about not just your experiences, but the science behind it. So it can seem so like woo woo of being like go outside, be one with nature. But when there’s science behind it too to show that it is really impacting these children in positive ways, it gets more buy-in from parents. So I appreciate hearing both sides of that, the personal experience and the science. We do end the podcast with one question that is, if you had a piece of advice to give our listeners, which are often family members, parents, but also sometimes teachers and other industry professionals, what advice would you give? And it can be related to nature learning or it could be completely off topic.

Amanda McMickle:

Yeah. I think the best piece of advice that I would give is to trust your children and believe in them. I deal with parents and community members every day, all day, and I feel like the future is really dependent on how much trust we put into the individuals who will be leading the world. And so that’s the biggest thing, is trust your kids, trust the journey they’re on and believe in them because they will live up to your expectation, whether how high or how low it is, they will hit it. So yeah,

Stephanie Landis:

That’s fantastic. I love that. That’s

Amanda McMickle:

Great advice. Yeah.

Stephanie Landis:

Well, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure to chat with you today.

Amanda McMickle:

My pleasure as well. Parish school is amazing, and so your families and students are so lucky to be a part of it and eager to see how their journey’s progressed beyond that as well.

Stephanie Landis:

Yeah, we are very lucky to have had a founder who truly felt connected to nature and from the very beginning made that part of the mission and a core to who we are is to have that aspect. And it’s great to see it living on, and it’s so rare within Houston to be such a big industrial city, to have such beautiful access to nature as we do on campus. So I do not take that for granted as somebody who works there. And I hope that the children feel it too.

Meredith Krimmel:

I’m sure they do. Well, thanks again. Thanks so much.

Stephanie Landis:

Yeah, thank you.